Ideas Of India 2023: At the second edition of ABP Network’s flagship event ‘Ideas Of India’, Indian author Amitav Ghosh spoke about how climate change has resulted in demographic changes in the country as well as in the world, how colonialism triggered climate change, and why capitalism is the “greatest market failure of all time”, especially in relation to climate change. Ghosh told actor Gul Panag, who hosted him during the session on climate change, that the world is on the brink of a food crisis.
‘Capitalism is the greatest market failure of all time’: Ghosh
Panag asked Ghosh if capitalism as an economic experiment ensuring “safeguarding our climate” has failed. Replying to Panag’s question, Ghosh said: “Capitalism is the greatest market failure of all time, you know, especially in relation to climate change. You know, how can you actually expect people who are told that greed is good and people who are told that you know, ‘Just go out there and make money for your shareholders’ to care about the environment or to care about, you know, the land. And they obviously don’t.”
Ghosh also said that a lot of capitalists talk about greenwashing, which refers to the practice of making unsubstantiated claims to deceive customers into believing that a company is running environmentally friendly operations.
Ghosh added that one of the many “amazing things” about Narayana Murthy is that he founded a company which actually was not harming the environment. He said the company was not predatory.
Ghosh recalled that the New York Times had a small article about Infosys which said that the company's top officers refused to take more money.
Ghosh said that entrepreneurs like Narayan Murthy have shown a different path.
‘India has whole-heartedly adopted this model of extractivism in relation to the environment’: Ghosh
Ghosh spoke about the problems India might face in the long run because of exploiting the environment. “India has whole-heartedly adopted this model of extractivism in relation to the environment, which is going to lead to absolute disaster. You can just see it,” he said.
The coastal road of Mumbai is going ahead despite the fact that it is known that the coast is incredibly threatened by “sea-level” rise, he added.
According to Ghosh, within the next 10-15 years, the coastal road of Mumbai will be impacted “very badly”. It is going to be completely exposed to the impacts of sea-level rise and the intensification of cyclones.
“And yet, the coastal road is going ahead. I have a theory about it, which is, everywhere you look in India – actually this is true all over the world – there is some giant building going up. And I think the huge push for this comes from the cement lobby. You know, the cement lobby is actually one of the most powerful in the world,” Ghosh added.
He also said that the cement and real-estate lobbies are pushing the building of dams. And dams are giant blocks of cement, he explained.
All these forms of so-called development will prove to be “catastrophic” in the long run, Ghosh said.
‘Climate change is a geopolitical contest, a war against the poor’: Ghosh
According to Ghosh, climate change is a geopolitical contest, a war against the world’s poor.
“The Green Revolution was sponsored by the American state as a part of a Cold War contest with the Soviet Union,” Ghosh said.
The author also said that the Green Revolution did not feed billions of people as claimed.
“Climate change itself is in some sense a geopolitical contest, you know. It is a kind of a war against the world’s poor,” Ghosh said.
Demographic changes due to climate change
Ghosh also said that climate change has resulted in demographic changes worldwide. In India, the demographic changes due to climate change are seen along the west coast.
He said that several house painters and masons in certain regions of India’s west coast are either Bengalis or from Jharkhand. A certain number are from Odisha, he said.
“But this has happened all the way along the west coast, and it has passed largely unnoticed. This is the case also in Kerala,” Ghosh said.
“There are schools now in Bangalore where there are more Bengali-speaking children than Kannada-speaking children. You can be sure that these will have very large repercussions, you know, these movements will have large demographic and political repercussions in the long run.
I don't understand why this passes so unnoticed,” Ghosh added.
“Italy is a country that I have been visiting for the last 30-40 years. And beginning in about 1999, I began to notice that everywhere you go in Italy, now, you hear ‘Bangla’ everywhere. You see large groups of Bengalis all over Italy, but most of all you see them in Venice,” Ghosh said.
“You know the entire working class of Venice now is Bengali-speaking. This was so striking to me because not only are they Bengali-speaking, but they don't speak the standard ‘Bangla’ of Kolkata. They speak the language I used to speak with my grandmother. This is the language of Shariatpur and Madaripur in Bangladesh,” the author said.
The immigrants were almost entirely Bangladeshi, he said. “It was very very fascinating to me to learn how they have made these incredibly dangerous long journeys across the Mediterranean, across Turkey into Europe,” Ghosh added.
This is the case on the streets of Brooklyn as well, the author said. “I hear Bengali being spoken all the time. All the people who repair houses are Bangladeshis.”
“I have seen this incredible demographic change occurring in front of my eyes. Bangla never used to be spoken in cities like New York, but is now spoken everywhere,” Ghosh said.
“The demographic change is not attributable only to climate change, but certainly, it is a very large part of it,” the author said.
“In 2016-17, I spent a long time doing research in the migrant camps in Italy,” Ghosh added. He said he was very struck by the number of Bengalis there. Punjabis from Pakistan were also there.
“Punjabis from Pakistan who have been displaced have been displaced by floods,” Ghosh said. They were displaced due to the Jhelum and Indus floods, he added.
“Many of the Bangladeshis have been displaced by floods. That is not the only thing. There are many political and economic factors,” Ghosh said.
He said he finds this striking because Bangladesh today is a very prosperous country. “They have some of the best outcomes in terms of health. And yet, people are leaving Bangladesh in droves.”
Colonialism and climate change
Ghosh said that the clearest examples of colonialism triggering climate change come from the Americas, Australia and Europe.
“Beginning in the 17th century, when the Europeans were conquering huge territories in North and South America, they started these massive environmental interventions. All of Northeast America was re-engineered to look like Britain,” Ghosh said.
He also said that this is how names like New England, New London, and New York came into existence. Earlier, New York was New Amsterdam, he said.
Ghosh explained that the re-engineering of America was a project implemented on a massive scale.
“America is the most re-engineered landscape in the world,” Ghosh said.
He added that all the grasslands of the Midwest were torn down and turned into “monocultures”. California, which was largely a desert area, was turned into something different, he said. This was done by re-engineering the Colorado River.
“So, the long-term effect of this is now being felt. The most endangered parts of America are the parts that have been most extensively re-engineered,” Ghosh explained.
Indigenous and Black people live in the so-called sacrificed zones of America: Ghosh
In the last few years, California has either been flooded or went up in flames, Ghosh said.
This is true for the entire West Coast, he said. In Southeast Australia, the situation is the same.
“Essentially, we are given a certain version of history. If you look at America from the point of view of the indigenous people, or if you look at America from the point of view of Black people, it is a completely different history. Because, right now, the people who are in the so-called sacrificed zones in America are mainly indigenous and Black people,” Ghosh said.
Climate change impact on Mississippi Delta
Ghosh explained how climate change has severely impacted the Mississippi Delta, which is a massively re-engineered landscape.
“So, for example, the Mississippi Delta, which is another very massively re-engineered landscape, is the area which is worst-hit. You know, everyday, something like the equivalent of five football fields is going under water in the Mississippi Delta. And the people who live there are almost entirely either indigenous or Black. This is also an area which is very important for the fossil fuel industry. So, this is also an area which has terribly bad chemicals,” Ghosh said.
He explained that there is terrible chemical contamination across the landscape. Houston, one of the richest cities in the world, and the fourth-largest city in America, Ghosh said, has been absolutely drowned, three or four times in the last few years.
“We can see, already, the long-term effects on these landscapes,” Ghosh said.
Colonialism-triggered climate change in Mumbai
The author also said that it is very important to make a similar connection with our own cities. He said that the colonial cities of India were built at almost exactly the same time as the big colonial cities of North America. “Mumbai was founded in the same decade, the 1660s, as New York.”
In the 1660s, when the British first got Mumbai from the Portuguese, as part of the dowry of Catherine of Braganza, Mumbai was “six islands”, Ghosh said. He explained that the Portuguese had the common sense not to build anything on the islands, but made their base in Bassein, now Vasai, which is on the mainland.
But the British, Ghosh said, decided to reclaim large parts of Mumbai, so they joined the six islands together, over a period of 100 years.
“These islands were reclaimed from the sea. But actually, you know, the water never gives anything up willingly. These islands are going to go back to the sea.
Heating up of the Arabian Sea due to climate change
Ghosh explained that the Arabian Sea is heating up at an incredibly fast rate due to climate change.
“You know, one of the most important impacts of climate change is that the Arabian Sea is heating up incredibly fast. The Bay of Bengal is also heating up fast, but the Arabian Sea is heating up even faster. So, cyclones are essentially heat engines,” Ghosh said.
In 2021, the author said, just before the Amphan cyclone hit Kolkata, there was a cyclone that was coming straight at Mumbai. But it reared at the last minute.
“But you just think what would happen if a major Category IV or Category V cyclone hits Mumbai,” Ghosh said.
New York is also very exposed to hurricanes and other tropical storms, the author said. New York was devastated by Hurricane Sandy, he added.
But New York is relatively fortunate because it has barrier islands outside which protect it, Ghosh explained. Even Staten Island is a kind of protection for New York.
“Mumbai has no protection at all. If a major cyclone were to come at Mumbai, travelling up the Indian Ocean, it would be catastrophic,” Ghosh said. This is because the most developed parts of Mumbai are all along the seashore.
“Everyone who is rich in Mumbai wants a view of the sea,” Ghosh said. According to him, these are the most dangerous parts of the city to be in. They are also the most exposed in the case of a cyclone hitting.
“The other problem is that Mumbai is connected to the mainland by two narrow roads,” Ghosh said.
Usually, cyclones are predicted ahead. “But even if you had five days to prepare, you would not be able to evacuate Mumbai. It is not physically possible to evacuate 15 million people. And in fact, most middle class people would not leave, because middle class people have all their savings invested in their flat, or in their car. You know, they don’t want to leave their flat or their car and go,” Ghosh further said.
The author said that they will be sitting ducks for a major cyclone, and that he wrote about this at great length in his book ‘The Great Derangement: Climate Change and the Unthinkable’.
He also said that he feels gratified about the fact that his book prompted a whole research project.
“At the most fundamental level, we are not preparing for our future. And that future is already here,” Ghosh said.
“Mumbai represents an incredible concentration of risk,” Ghosh added.
He also said that 40 per cent of the country’s trade goes through Mumbai, and that the city has all the most important financial institutions in the country: the Mumbai Stock Exchange and the Reserve Bank of India (RBI). Both these institutions are in low-lying areas.
“If there were to be a major flood or cyclone, they will be completely out of action, possibly for weeks,” Ghosh warned.
‘Globally, we are on the brink of a food crisis’: Ghosh
Panag said that economists and farmers are worried about the unusual rise in temperatures in the month of February, which has caused wheat to ripen early. Ghosh told Panag: “Globally, we are on the brink of a food crisis.”
He explained that so far, we have been protected because of the grain reserves of countries like Russia, Ukraine and Canada. But Canada is also being badly hit in its major breadbasket regions, he said.
‘Punjab has been severely disrupted by climate change’: Ghosh
According to Ghosh, Punjab has been severely disrupted not only by climate change, but also by certain patterns of agriculture.
The Green Revolution was seen to be a huge boon at a certain point. Now, it turns out to be one of those phenomena, you know, the unintended consequences of which have been disastrous in the long-run,” Ghosh said.
The author said that Punjab farmers were given genetically modified seeds, and asked to just pump out fossil water. There was an incentive for farmers to keep pumping up water from the aquifers, he said.
“Now, the upper Ganga Aquifer is almost exhausted,” Ghosh said. Fertilisers and insecticides are coming from fossil fuels, the author added.
Actionables to combat climate change
Ghosh said that the reduction of carbon footprint networks is important to combat climate change. He also gave an example of a person who is doing “important” things at the grassroots level to protect the environment.
Ghosh said he immensely admires a man named Debol Dey, who lives in Kolkata. Dey is a collector of seeds, and distributes various kinds of seeds, especially of rice, the author said. These varieties include drought-resistant rice and flood-resistant rice. He has strains of rice which can grow under six feet of water, for as long as a month, Ghosh said.
When the Sunderbans were badly hit by floods, he had salt-resistant varieties of rice, the author said.
“I think people like him really are the unsung heroes who are working at the grassroots level. And perhaps, it is good, they are not so well-known. Because, if they were well-known, maybe the big agricultural companies would go after him, and try and destroy the kinds of work he does. Because, you know, these corporations are utterly ruthless,” Ghosh concluded.